I have recently recognised my own interest in the human body as having been considered “a temple for the soul” or, as a thing, in our now materialist culture. Paul Thek, the sculptor, considered the body as a thing – and in response to his Catholic upbringing that certain body parts were sinful, he, in his sculptural work, lopped them off. What is your attitude to this dual purpose body?
I honestly like the idea of the body having a soul/spirit. I often think of the body as a vessel perhaps. I love all the Egyptian mummies and embalming. Turning the body into an object but preserving it at the same time. I find the inner workings of the body’s organs fascinating, how it automatically knows what to do. I somehow arrive at a separation from body and head. So much going on with the head, eyes, mouth, ears, nose, brain, whereas the body is more object / vessel somehow. Paul Thek I have been aware of for some time . I remember coming across his work and finding the assemblage of body and neon Perspex interesting. Sort of gory Donald Judd. Although I have never done a deep dive into his work, I remember seeing images of installations of himself dead ? Not sure. So I never got a jolt of inspiration from seeing his work etc. I got a bit lost with most of his work. I’ve always been interested in bringing the human body into my work. Possibly inspired from statues in churches. Michelangelo, Donatello from when I was a child.
When does figuration appear in your constructions and why? If it is yourself who appears figuratively at times in your work, why do you appear recognisable then?
So figurative forms or images can come into the work at any stage. I may even directly start with something figurative. This could be through modelling something in clay or casting myself by myself or casting someone else. Sometimes if it’s too complicated to cast by myself I will cast one of my two sons. I use myself in my work or my sons mainly out of convenience and what is at hand. I quite like becoming a character in the work also but it’s not a necessity. My wife cast me here in “The Dude”. This early work, done while still at the RCA, was derived from a short story by Kafka – about a dog who someone sewed a human penis onto. So the dog slowly acts like a man. The Dude is how society can make you want such a body.
Why do you think that the body now, by sculptors and artists, is disrupted or disguised?
Making a figuratively accurate representation is a bit like illustration as it’s known, in advance, the visual outcome of the thing being created. As well, creating a work means, for me, responding to the material and discovering what it wants to do irrespective of the meaning of what is made. Some areas might be figurative to be extra clear. Some parts become enlarged for structural reasons, but that becomes part of the work too, as it’s the material telling what it needs.
Do you include other people figuratively? When do they become figurative and why? Do you have a drawing practice and if so what do you draw?
The human figure has been and always will be an exciting subject to incorporate into my work. I mainly use it through painting, drawings, collages and through modelling in clay or casting. I sometimes tend to morph parts of the human figure with abstract forms creating a type of hybrid. I have made particularly the combination of big abstract chunks of cement, plaster, clay etc with cast human body parts. I’ve often looked at the cast parts as ready-mades. I’ve always found when combining these two languages together it makes an unfamiliar flux. Although it has to be done in a very particular way to where it sits in a certain harmony. This is not easy to achieve. I do find using the human figure instantly brings a way into a sculpture to most viewers. The human figure allows a spectator their own interpretation of narrative.
Does reorientating and rescaling the human body, in whole or in parts, allow it to be more expressive than its actual form allows? Do you think that humans have now new emotions than we did in earlier times – given that we have a different situation with climate change, AI, medical advances, neuroscience etc
“Normal” things are boring and the work is about what happens. We have become desensitised because of the way the world has changed. Since 9/11, the world is less safe – gory and upsetting things are almost routine on the expanded news networks. Something has to be ramped up to be seen and heard in this environment. A work must have as much energy as the violent “new normal”. Works are more expressive because of that I think. When stuck indoors with Covid – I became aware that I wanted to make energetic scuptures.
The figures seem to me to either dance delicately, or else to express force in a war-like way – and sometimes both ways simultaneously. Do you dance?
I do not dance.
Did these works begin as body parts?
Sometimes – just parts, sometimes they become bodies, sometimes they begin figuratively. Or were parts of one body and were reassembled to make new bodies. I keep reassembling, adding, subtracting until I can’t use the elements anymore – or there is not a new constellation for them that says anything more.
What is the material to make the sand/cement/wax appearance?
It is sand, cement, and wax
Are these works mobile as they seem to be on trolleys? Was there ever an aim of mobility so that they could be in alternate differing relation to each other?
They are not meant to be together but they can be. They get added to, along time. When they are in front of you, there are constant ideas, and the work grows in front of you via constant changes. When you can’t think of anything else to do to a work – you’ve destroyed it. Then various bits are added to and taken off – possibly up to two years later. It’s a conversation – language-like. The work wants new things – all the time. Sometimes I want to open it up and see what is inside. To see what it really is. You know that a form has been thoroughly checked and investigated. Sometimes I rip the band aid off and let it die. The work will tell you what to do with it.
How do you arrive at the point of stasis when wrestling to find harmonies between these opposites (materials and/or concepts)?
I really have no particular way to arrive at a point of stasis. Every time I am working, I am somewhat in the dark on what I am actually doing and cannot fully explain why I am making this object, drawing, painting, whatever it is. Once a particular piece is underway, I will continue to work on it as the ideas, urges come. Once I have pushed this form or painting to where I can no longer think of giving it any more but it’s missing something but I don’t know what it is, I tend to look for something that is somewhat the opposite of what this thing is. So things like a ready-made or a hard clean industrial made piece of cold steel could enter a work. The possibilities of assemblage are limitless. It could be anything. Once I have found something, I will simply try it out and give it time. Let it breathe with the other form and see if it sits well. There is a test of time. That could be weeks or months and I will have to change it or move it. It seems to be a very long journey with no map and just pure intuition and patience and no preciousness.
These works evoke really strong feelings – are these feelings within you – if so, are you conscious of them – before or during you make the work? It really brings up very strong feelings – it is delicious but disgusting at the same time. One is drawn towards it but repelled at the same time. This work seems from another planet, it seems like it’s radioactive or something dangerous – but it is enclosed in a biological membrane.
It is very difficult to know what a sculpture actually is. This is c2005. I wanted to make them very visceral and raw. I was trying out ready-mades and resins, glues and plastic.
When do you find a work complete? Or do you?
With other works sometimes I can find or come across something I don’t recognise; it’s unfamiliar and that’s where I back off. I back off when it becomes unfamiliar/unrecognisable because to me it’s a chance I could have come across something new. Something I have not seen or known before. I am not really interested in repeatedly making the same type of work in a conveyor belt manner. In some way the works are pretty anti-commercial. In terms of the combination of different materials, there is no partner, no divorce in any way. They are just forms, just materials that hold their own language, their own identity, I guess, in balance/in conversation with each other. Overall the work is acting as a whole thing in itself. To find this harmony, it really is just through hard graft and fearless pushing, chopping, changing. With some works, I will keep working on them to where they will just end up being destroyed completely into dust. There was no way it was gonna stop at a stage.
These collages are a bit unnerving as there are many dimensions – they are like a 3D mazes – to me. I question what is solid and what is void. They are architectural in this sense.
I was thinking about the spaces again. The heads were stuck onto paper first. Then the spaces were constructed over the top. Some areas are really textured, because of the different pieces of cards.
These collages include and create spaces – in which the figurative elements – the heads – reside peacefully or rebel against.
Some things are thought about afterwards – then I become aware of what I’m doing. These collages were made with oil bar and are large in size, possibly 2 x A1.
References
De Wachter, E. M (2012) John Summers. Zabludowicz Collection.
Mark Tanner Sculpture Award Exhibition (2006-7) John Summers: Future Primitive
Trigg, D (2024) These Mad Hybrids: John Hoyland and Contemporary Sculpture”. Studio International. (2024)
http://www.johnsummers.space
http://www.studio1-1.co.uk/kate-lyddon-and-john-summers
About the Author
Sally Redway (1953 – ) is a London based artist, interested in most things, but recognising the focus of her interests is the human body. She completes MA Sculpture at Camberwell in 2026. Website: www.sararedway.com
About John Summers
John Summers (b. 1974 – )
John Summers is a sculptor whose work is very expressive of energy and is both figurative and abstract. He is London based and won the Mark Tanner Sculpture Award 2006/7.